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Are Enough Oath Takers Oath Keepers?

What happens when guys like these give the orders? And does anyone seriously think “it can never happen here”?

I just ran across a post from two months back on the CDR Salamander blog, “The Sad Truth About Illegal Orders.” I can’t really claim to know much about the blog or this blogger, but I cite it here because he raises a question that seems particularly suited for Oath Keepers. He recounts  an exchange between presumptive GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump and Bret Baier of Fox News, specifically on Trump’s endorsement of waterboarding, going “stronger” on terrorists, and targeting their families.

Baier referred to an open letter signed by “almost 100 foreign policy experts,” saying “the military will refuse because they’ve been trained to turn down and refuse illegal orders. So what would you do, as commander-in-chief, if the U.S. military refused to carry out those orders?”

“They won’t refuse,” Trump replied. “They’re not going to refuse me. Believe me.”

“Citizens of a free republic are applauding a man who is telling everyone two things that should disgust anyone who took an oath to ‘support and defend the Constitution of the United States,’” the blogger notes. “1. The CINC will issue illegal orders. 2. His military will gladly follow those illegal orders. 3. Citizens applaud 1 & 2.”

As for members of the military who might refuse?

“The more I’ve thought about it, the more I think my initial instinct is wrong,” CDR Salamander admits. “That might be an internal dialog, but once a senior officer looks you in the eye, and even if you make a protest says, ‘The JAG stated,’ or ‘The Justice Department ruled that,’ there are very few who will resist.”

That goes to the crux of what Oath Keepers is about, noting the oath is to the Constitution and the applicability of the Uniform Code of Military Justice as binding law prohibiting a Nuremberg-style “I was only following orders” defense. That’s the legal basis for “Orders we will not obey.”

And that, of course, is used by subversive “progressives” to label Oath Keepers “anti-government extremists” (and worse). That’s part of the Orwellian “War is peace; Freedom is slavery; Ignorance is strength” contradictions employed by the evil to influence and exploit the ignorant and advance the totalitarian agenda.

But here’s the thing — these are the same people who, at least publicly, decry obeying orders against foreign enemies, but demand they be followed against the domestic population, especially in regard to following orders to disarm the American people.

The former can make for an interesting hypothetical discussion: Must the Constitution be a suicide pact? It’s the Hollywood trope of the terrorist who’s going to set off a nuke in a major city and kill millions – what do you do? And that, of course, opens up an entire slippery slope for where a line can and should be drawn. Or we could make it more up close and personal: Your family is being held hostage.  I’m part of the plot, know where they are, and ain’t talking. Unless you act quickly, well, you get the drift. At what point do you start carving?

Fortunately, these seem to be scenarios relegated to “popular” ultraviolence fiction, as opposed to real world dilemmas an Oath Keeper is likely to encounter. The orders to be refused seem pretty unambiguous, legally and morally. So the real question here, going back to CDR Salamander’s contention, is will they be refused by a significant enough number of active duty colleagues to make a difference?

Many here are no doubt familiar with the infamous Twenty-Nine Palms survey, in which Marines were asked, among other things, “if they would be willing to swear to a United Nations code of conduct and if they would fire on Americans who refused to turn over their privately owned weapons to the government.” That’s the kind of abuse the “progressive” gun-grabbers demand from those they expect to perform confiscations on their behalf, and sadly, we saw no small amount of both police and National Guard members who seemed willing to do whatever it took in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina (and some who did not). We even saw “conservative” talking head Bill O’Reilly trying to take Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes to task on confiscating arms during “emergencies.”

So the question being asked here is not would someone who is an Oath Keepers member refuse to obey unconstitutional orders  — the presumption is most of you have already given that one serious consideration. It’s what would the military and police personnel who are not members do? I’m asking those of you who have current and former colleagues to share your assessment of their likely actions based on your experience with them.

Would the guys you know and have worked with “just follow orders”? Do you have a feel for the ratio of those who would vs. those who would not? And do you have a feel for how current active duty personnel would respond? Based on all that, have you taken the initiative to act as a force multiplier, to broach the concept of illegal orders with your colleagues, and to encourage them to find out more about what it means to be an Oath Keeper?



David Codrea blogs at The War on Guns: Notes from the Resistance (, and is a field editor/columnist for GUNS Magazine. Named “Journalist of the Year” in 2011 by the Second Amendment Foundation for his groundbreaking work on the “Fast and Furious” ATF “gunwalking” scandal, he is a frequent event speaker and guest on national radio and television programs.


    1. Water boarding the enemy. This is a no brainier. Why? If it saves one of my guys, one American, an innocent civilian, I’m all in. Sometimes you need to get in the gutter to defeat the enemy. An enemy that cuts off heads. An enemy that burns people alive. An enemy that kills children for swearing. An enemy that kills Christians. The name of the game is to defeat the dirty bastards. Any way possible. Their are no Kings rules here Sir. The enemy set the rules of combat. It’s time to bury the enemy in pig fat. Their are no liberals on the battlefield. Fight like a Roman Leigionares. Take no prisoners. This is another Crusades.

      1. Jeeezus H. Christiseos, Mon! They’ve captured your soul too. Has nobody told you already that the CIA is creating the “enemy”?

        I mean, like, Dude! Holy smokes! Listen please. We had no “enemy” after we won WWI. They created and built up the Third Reich. We had no “enemy” after we won WWII. They created the UN and the Cold War. We had no enemy after we won the Cold War. They created a so-called “War on Terror”.

        And every time, after each time we defeated every enemy and had no enemy left to make war against the bastards created a new enemy and we beat that one, after every time, the damnable American citizenry believed the BS about who would be the next “enemy”.

        We have no enemy except the people we bomb into hatred for our hegemony. The real enemy is sitting right up there inside that beltway at WDC. Think on it Bro. Don’t be led into supporting highly immoral and unlawful cruelty. Lay in the gutter and you may get some puke on you at closing time, right? Walk upright and stay above the mass programming being pumped at you all day and all night over the air waves and on screens.

        I am talking to you as an honorably discharged U.S. Marine and Veteran of the Viet Nam war. I have learned much about what an “enemy” is since my time at war. Thanks for reading here.

        Elias Alias, editor

      2. Elias…..Well stated/factual! You sir, are correct. The Problem I am having is that I want to use everything Bill mentioned on the folks inside the beltway for ruining my country and the lives of millions of people.

      3. Bill, you have drunk the Kool-Aid of the real enemy. And just like the real enemy, you invoke Christ to justify your blood thirst.

      4. “The enemy set the rules of combat.”

        Probably the only mainstream lie that you got right, except for I believe you have the wrong enemy in your crosshairs.

        Here in America there are NO lawful wars of agression, only defense. We are NOT even supposed to have a standing military, instead every single capable person is supposed to be trained as congress requires the military to be trained and armed with all the weapons of war that might be needed. We are even supposed to have our own weapons manufacturers so that if (as we have today) we got corrupt and treasonous scum serving within our governments they could not cut us off from the military grade weapons we might need to defend our nation.

        Who is mudering children, bombing hospitals, using false flags and lies against their own people; jailing whistle blowers who let the people who those in government SERVE and REPRESENT know about the corruption and crimes they have committed against the American people; using election fraud to shut up the people’s voice; Waco’s, Ruby Ridge’s, Kent State’s; having us in a police state today; etc.

        Those things were/are being done in OUR name, and we do NOT like it. The American people are patient, but notice that everytime there was a “problem” more weapons were sold here. they are speaking with the voice left to them, and are saying “No More”!

        I know that you are seeing/have seen terrible things; but consider that NONE OF those serving within our military should be off of US soil unless they are vacationing because there is no delegation to those WHO SERVE WITHIN our governments to keep us in continuing wars – they are supposed to avoid them. They are supposed to be the militia.

        Think not? Read on and learn our REAL and legitimate government;

        US Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Clause 11: “To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water”.

        By delegating that authority to the legislative branch it is then forbidden for any other branch or office within a branch to declare or put the USA into war unless we are attacked here on US soil. The armed and trained people of America are to defend our nation while those to be the US military are taken from their ranks and trained further – if need be.

        NO US President is the Commander in Chief until either/or the Militia and military is “called into the actual service of the United States” by the congress. Nor can a US President give himself/herslef assassination powers. It is NOT a power delegated, it is a crime of usrpation and First Degree Murder/mass murder, *Terrorism, and Treason. Not one president has that authority delegated and there is NO lawyer/attorney, judge, or legislature that can give them that authority. Sorry, NOT HERE IN AMERICA.

        Clause 12: “To RAISE and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years”. (caps are mine)

        Clause 15: “To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and REPEL INVASIONS. “ (caps are mine)

        George Washington: “A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.”

        Nor can those that serve wtihin the federal government may not lawfully circumvent the U.S. Constitution by treaties with foreign nations nad foreign entities. They may NOT do by Treaty what it is not permitted to do by the U.S. Constitution. Those unconstitutional “treaties” would not be/are not today lawfully part of “the supreme Law of this Land”, because it was not/would not have been made under the Authority of the United States. It would be a usurpation of authority that was NOT delegated to them. Yet they treasonously (Panetta, Dempsey, Obama) gave the US military to the UN/NATO to be its enforcement arm.

        Thomas Jefferson, 1st inaugural, explained that: “a well-disciplined militia” is “our best reliance in peace and for the first moments of war, till regulars may relieve them” and also a guarantee of “the supremacy of the civil over the military authority; [and] economy in the public expense.”

        ames Madison: “The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the legislature … the executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question, whether there is or is not cause for declaring war.”

        George Washington: “The constitution vests the power of declaring war in Congress; therefore no offensive expedition of importance can be undertaken until after they shall have deliberated upon the subject and authorized such a measure.”

        James Madison: “In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.”

        James Madison: “Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. … The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals, engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.” (Think that is why the USA is continually at war?)

        What about our “alliances”?

        George Washington: “It is our true policy to steer clear of entangling alliances with any portion of the foreign world. The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible.”
        Thomas Jefferson: “I have ever deemed it fundamental for the United States never to take active part in the quarrels of Europe. Their political interests are entirely distinct from ours. Their mutual jealousies, their balance of power, their complicated alliances, their forms and principles of government, are all foreign to us. They are nations of eternal war. “

        John Quincy Adams: “America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She well knows that by enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standards of freedom.”

        Alexander Hamilton: “Foreign influence is truly the Grecian horse to a republic. We cannot be too careful to exclude its influence.”

        Please READ the US Constitution, all documents pro and con, and the debates creating our form of government, because YOU are needed to really defend her liberty, our nation – unfortunately it is here on our own soil.

        And if you do not recognize “isms” (socialism, nazism, corporatism, etc) then here is a decent description.

        Robert Gore, clearly defines what he calls “the scourge”: “Socialism is a political system whereby the state owns or controls the means of production for goods and services. It can be partial – government control of some industries, or total—government control of all industries. According to Marx, who advocated the total version, the goods and services would be produced by each according to his or her ability, and distributed according to each individual’s need: production severed from distribution. No particular acuity is necessary to see the fatal flaw. The “needy” – and those who garner political power by distributing goods and services to them – are all for this system, but what’s in it for the able? They have to be coerced to produce, and something has to be done with those who object or refuse to submit.”

        You have been/are lied to daily if you are serving today, and those lying to you at the bottom may not be aware that they are misleading you. But since they are REQUIRED to take the Oath, they are REQUIRED to know it, to enforce it when and if needed and that is before the orders of superiors and the duties of the positions being occupied. Learn it so that you, and others around you can never be deceived again by the corrupt that serve now/or may serve in the future.

        God Bless!

        Stay Safe All!

        If there were never intended to be action to defend the Constitution from those who are domestically attempting to destroy its power and authority, why would each Oath require it of those who take the Oaths?

        Chief Tecumseh: “When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.”


    2. Trump was saying he would protect our country plain and simple. But, let us play games instead.

      After 9/11 happened no one disobeyed and order when it came to protecting the United States.

      So, why are we pretending they would have to?

      1. Yep. I was home that day recovering from a severe injury. I couldn’t sleep, so was up bright and early, made a pot of coffee, and turned on the news. Next thing you know, Dial Emergency 9-1-1 happened. So I watched it all unfold from the beginning. Now, you have to understand that I am not one of those emotional types. Ya know, crossing and squeezing your legs together, getting ready to pee your pants, and squealing OMG! OMG! OMG! Did anyone note the Twin Towers fall? Ya know, objectively and without the emotional clap-trap that was being fed to you? Did anyone notice Tower 7 fall? Does anyone, like during the OKC bombing fiasco, pay any attention to the firefighters and cops mentioning… oh, say… bombs? Bombs going off? Clear the building? Did anyone even notice the manner in which all THREE towers came down? Anyone even notice the squibs? I did, even before anyone said anything about squibs.

        Man… what a mind job they pulled on the American people.

        Know what I thought the first time they showed the “Let’s Roll” crash sight? Do I need to answer? Box cutters! LMAO!

        How about the Penta-con?

        Yeah, while most AmeriKans were on a emotional roller coaster, and sucking in every word of the Lame Stream Media, I was paying attention. I wasn’t grabbing my crotch and peeing my pants.

        News flash! Osama Bin Laden done did it!

        Yeah. That was a good one. Considering the first thing that popped into my mind when the Lame Stream Stream Media mentioned his name. Any guess to what that was? Starts with a “C”.

        Did I say… Man, what a mind job? Traumatic conditioning?

        Just tell them they are being attacked.

        It works the same in any country.

        A new Pearl Harbor.

        And hey! How about Ukraine? Huh? It was about dumbocracy! It had nothing to do with removing Russia’s Black Sea Fleet from Crimea! Can’t be having that BSF going through the Bosphorus and the Mediterranean Sea and into… oh, say… Tartus Syria?

        Do I need to get a map out for all you military OK’ers and explain all this USA nut-jobbing?

        And hey, how about that 1973 U.N. NGO Club of Rome Map? Why, just bring it up to the 21st century and paint Turkey purple… and… NO! Why, region 7 looks like… like… No! No way!

        No what folks, turn off the damn booboisie tube.

        Word for the day: You are now in the greatest epoch in the time of man.

        Most of you will see WWIII. Remember who started it. On the surface, it might not appear to be…? But you will be wrong.

        13 steps, and you are now in the age of Horus. And there were 2 chapters to the founding of this country. And you have been hi-jacked.


        You’re going to need more ammo.

  1. a similar situation was encountered by an officer of the US military when several servicemen in his command were captured by opposition forces in the middle East. A member of the opposition was also captured, and refused to give any assistance in locating our servicemen. The officer drew his sidearm threatening the captive who still refused feeling the officer wouldn’t actually shoot him. However, when Col. West discharged his pistol next to the prisoners head, he started singing like a canary. Our men were taken from their captors relatively unharmed. However, Col. West had to resign his commission in the armed forces. I would rather serve and die with a Leader, and a patriot like Col. West,than a politically correct puppet leader that would just chalk it all up to a bad day,like BHO and H Clinton.

    1. This was the moment when I began to follow Col. West’s carreer out of extreme admiration. However, he was not ordered to take this action nor did he order someone else to violate the UCMJ. Also, he was not only forced to resign but was facing a court martial being pushed by some of the more traitorous members of Congress. The only thing that stopped what would have been a complete miscarriage of justice was the massive support that the Colenol received from the american people. So, no one should ever be forced to betray their convictions. On the other hand, i would be willing to do far more than water boarding to a terrorist in order to save innocent lives and I highly doubt that I am alone. This is far from a conventional war that we are in and we can NOT afford to fight it with a conventional mentality.

    2. we dont execute proven murders, kidnappers and child molesters and we dont want to waterboard an enemy during wartime… yet the American idiots have no problem dismembering or burning to death an innocent unborn… perhaps we need to waterboard some of our legislators until they get with justice instead of political correctness. I am all for obeying our Constitution but until such time as our legislators line up our military needs to be defended… God help our nation.

      1. Let’s flip that coin over.

        Christians who recoil in horror at the mere thought of abortion have no problem raising their fetus for 18 years before dressing it in a uniform and sending it off to some distant sandbox for a few rounds of kill-or-be-killed. If that doesn’t count as “repulsive”, I can’t imagine what might fit the bill.

  2. Having asked the question concerning gun “takings” has resulted in a mixed response. Some state outright that they “would not comply.” Some respond that they would follow orders, and when confronted with, “Thanks. Good to know. I’ll make sure that I fire first in that event,” the response has often been, “I guess I’d better rethink that.” It thus seems as though the majority have not even faced the possibility. We have our work cut out for us in informing our peers as to what can be expected as the government encroaches more and more into our lives and liberty.

  3. “Baier referred to an open letter signed by “almost 100 foreign policy experts,” saying “the military will refuse because they’ve been trained to turn down and refuse illegal orders. So what would you do, as commander-in-chief, if the U.S. military refused to carry out those orders?””

    And yet so many illegal executive actions / orders have been issued, and none of these clowns do anything. Illegal orders, just following orders didn’t work out Nuremberg, but what few remember is there were two trials at Nuremberg. One for the military, one for the civilian officeholders. Any outcome was the same for both

  4. “And that, of course, is used by subversive “progressives” to label Oath Keepers “anti-government extremists” (and worse). ”

    Wanting to remove the treasonous scum, Domestic enemies, and corrupt people who PRETEND TO SERVE WITHIN our government is not being a “government extremist” like those who label us such are – working from within to destroy America is treason, and they are using *Terrorism also to do so.

    Thomas Jefferson: “When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”

    Abraham Lincoln: “We, the people, are the rightful masters of both congress and the courts – not to overthrow the constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.”

    *28 C.F.R. Section 0.85 Terrorism is defined as “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives”.

    Consider what John Adams said in “A Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law” (1765): “Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right… and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, and indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge, I mean OF THE CHARACTERS AND CONDUCT of their rulers.”

    Basically, keep your Oath if an oath taker, and if not, stand for your legitimate government the US Constitution and each state’s Constitution. Stand for your nation.

    Dr. Vieira summed it up nicely also when he said: “This has nothing to do with personalities or subjective ideas. It’s a matter of what the Constitution provides…
    The government of the United States has never violated anyone’s constitutional rights…
    The government of the United States will never violate anyone constitutional rights, because it cannot violate anyone’s constitutional rights. The reason for that is: The government of the United States is that set of actions by public officials that are consistent with the Constitution. Outside of its constitutional powers, the government of the United States has no legitimacy. It has no authority; and, it really even has no existence. It is what lawyers call a legal fiction.”

    President Andrew Johnson: “Outside of the Constitution we have no legal authority more than private citizens, and within it we have only so much as that instrument gives us. This broad principle limits all our functions and applies to all subjects.”

    1. Cal you are 100% right on. All I can say is our government is so in trenched by oath breakers changing the landscape back to its intended constitutional values will never take place unless we do something and the sooner the better. Until the people of this nation stand together and as needed drag the traitors out of the halls of Washington and our State Capitals and put them on trial for treason we are fighting a losing battle. Sitting back and debating will get us no ware. We need to amass all constitutional organizations into one willing and able to take a stand. Doing nothing strengthens their ability to continuously violate our constitutional rights and deepens their control and strength. I know firing the first shot will not work and doing so will than alienate the general population.

      Creating the first peaceful move is the only path we have left but it must be powerful, powerful meaning the number of people willing to take a stand and march on Washington while congress is in session. We need every constitutional organization in this country and like minded citizens and military personnel to attend. We need to clearly tell those corrupting our nation we will not tolerate any further unconstitutional actions on their part and all unconstitutional laws identified, repealed and we must name all of them. The perpetrators must be identified named publicly in front of all attending. We must have news coverage and we must send notice to those guilty either change your ways or be forcefully removed and tried for treason. They need to be told if we have to come back again we will take the necessary actions to remove from government all the traitors who have voted for unconstitutional laws.
      Sitting back as Oath Keepers , getting our neighborhoods ready for a revolution is a first good step however if it comes to this the death and turmoil generated will be the highest price we as a nation will ever pay. I can’t think of any other way to avoid the hell that would be released on our families’ friends and neighbors if it came to an armed conflict. This is the only peaceful path I can think of and I would surely like someone to explain to me how in hell we are going to succeed as a standalone organization?

      1. That’s a tall order, PM, covering as it does nearly everything in the CFR since about 1830. If you do manage to pull it off (undoing all the unconstitutional laws) the CFR will be published in a paperback edition for the first time ever.

    2. Over 2 million soldiers followed Lincoln’s unconstitutional War of Federal Aggression. That is exactly what we are facing today, Federal Aggression.

      Shelby Foote said it best, ‘Before the Civil War Americans would say ‘the United States AR’. After Lincoln’s war they would say, ‘The United States IS’. Lincoln destroyed States’ right and thus the Republic.

  5. Thought provoking read. Having spent 25 yrs watching some of the state’s worse inmates, I noted that one on one, most of even the hardened inmate was controllable, yet put him in a group and the pack mentality takes over. What does this have to do with the topic at hand you say? I think most orders would be followed, as is the case more often than not, the information received (unlawful order to take action) is not accurate and has even been hyped up to incite action. What service member wouldn’t be the first one in line to take out a terrorist in this country especially. Now, tell them a hyped up story that a terror watch is on this guy, go get his guns. Really? You believe they won’t obey? Meanwhile the guy gets rolled on by a squad, his rights to anything taken away, all for being on a terror list for looking at oath keepers website or Facebook page. (Not to knock oath keepers). Just my opinion.

  6. Once again I am reminded of why I am a daily reader of your blog, David. Thank you for so bluntly and irresistibly putting your finger on the pressure point…I can understand why you and Mike V. work so well together! We can only hope and pray that those who receive such orders are paying close attention.

  7. WRONG. Trump said many times that his orders would NOT be illegal in the first place and implied that the military would not want to disobey them – he did NOT mean that he’d force them. An unfair and most misinformed assumption!. He said he plans a policy of Peace Through Strength.” I’m disappointed that this author mischaracterized Mr, Trump. I’d expect this from mainstream media but not the Oath Keepers.

    1. Marlene, even if you are correct about Trump the VITAL ISSUE are the 3 questions in the last paragraph.

  8. I had this argument when king Obama and company were pushing their anti gun agenda full force .
    The sad reality is our current military and most police forces will tow the line and do what they are ordered to do.
    As with Nuremberg trials. The victors decide what is and is not an illegal order. If you notice during the trials no mention was made of firebombing cities full of civilians. Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, not to mention dropping two atomic bombs on cities, not military formations.
    Not saying we were wrong to do it but you have to remember those pilots and bombadiers KNEW they were bombing cities full of civilians and to my knolege none refused those orders which today are considered “War Crimes” and crimes against humanity.
    Today’s military has been reduced to only those who Will follow orders starting right at the top. Leaders have been replaced with yes men and if the military is on board you REALLY believe local police will stand against them?
    We would love to believe that our military would tell Washington to stuff it but the majority will not do that.
    Like I said in the beginning the victors decide who is right and who is wrong

  9. Folks in paramilitary gear are busting into farms on a regular basis. Cocaine, extortion, and illegal arms fund presidential campaigns. From Love Canal to Hanford, Simi valley to cancer alley, Flint to the gulf coast, we’re being bulldozed. If people were to wake up and come to grips with reality abruptly, there would be a level of anger that would supercede clear thought. It’s engineered that way. Isn’t the writing on the wall clear enough?

    Let’s be real here. Even if the people fought the government, won, and restored the republic….

    We have dozens of Chernobyls waiting to happen, most of our nuke power comes out of reactors that were built before our beloved classic cars.

    Hanford, Simi valley, and other areas are too contaminated to clean up. They need to be exclusion zones.

    Our water infrastructure is also older than most classic cars.

    Our power grid does not have adequate protection or redundancies to abate a solar storm, let alone other natural disasters or terrorism.

    The education of people 40 and younger is so poor, and without emphasis on independent critical thought that any catastrophic event would be devastating. Many younger folk haven’t even the ability to dig a hole effectively.

    Farming has shifted from local to central, and any type of catastrophic event would leave millions starving.

    Seriously, an entire town got lead poisoning, some died and were disabled, and no one is doing a life sentence? No one hooked up a fire hose and flooded the officials homes? Nope. However, look at Ferguson…. The television owns us, and those whom run the media run the show.

    Maybe a fashion statement could change things….if your underemployed or unemployed, white arm band… If you take home less than 25k annually, blue arm band…..if your homeless, red arm band. Mix and match. Sadly, if this caught on, clothing companies would profit greatly.

  10. I have no problems with waterboarding. It’s where we say we will go after the terrorist families, and everyone seemingly has no problem with that. yes we have to fight down and dirty on the same level as the enemy. no we don;t have to go out of our way to kill innocents. enough of them die in war as it is without deliberately targeting them.

  11. “Let’s be real here. Even if the people fought the government, won, and restored the republic….”

    No. Those domestic enemies, corrupt, and even treasonous scum who SERVE WITHIN our government have “won” so far, so much so that people actually act and talk as if they are ‘the’ government instead of people placed there to carry out duties delegated and assigned to the branch or the position being occupied. They are not our government. The US Constitution and all that is in Pursuance thereof, plus each state’s Constitution, plus we the people ARE the government, the others just serve for/within them – general (federal) and state.

    It is their actions that have created those listed by you;

    “dozens of Chernobyls waiting to happen, most of our nuke power comes out of reactors that were built before our beloved classic cars.

    Hanford, Simi valley, and other areas are too contaminated to clean up. They need to be exclusion zones.

    Our water infrastructure is also older than most classic cars.

    Our power grid does not have adequate protection or redundancies to abate a solar storm, let alone other natural disasters or terrorism.

    The education of people 40 and younger is so poor, and without emphasis on independent critical thought that any catastrophic event would be devastating. Many younger folk haven’t even the ability to dig a hole effectively.

    Farming has shifted from local to central, and any type of catastrophic event would leave millions starving.

    Seriously, an entire town got lead poisoning, some died and were disabled, and no one is doing a life sentence?”

    How can i say that? Because under the US Constitution a person is NOT allowed to do actions that cause harm to another, or to anothers property, and that goes double for those that serve within our governments. What one must understand is that those who serve after the ones who cause/caused those problems are as responsible for them – the removal of them, the clean-up, etc – as the originals who created those problems and health hazards.

    If they are still living, they are still personally responsible for their actions forever as they were under Oath and the strongest contract of our nation when committed, and it IS forever. But the enforcers of those actions are us; as the militia enforcing our laws by arrests/charges/etc. Prosecutions because under OUR US Constitution and all state Constitutions we ALL get a jury trial for crimes committed.

    Benjamin Franklin: “In free governments the rulers are the servants, and the people their superiors and sovereigns. For the former, therefore, to return among the latter was not to degrade but to promote them.”

    J. Reuben Clark spoke about the need for a solid support of the Constitution: “God provided that in this land of liberty, OUR POLITICAL ALLEGIANCE SHALL RUN NOT TO INDIVDUALS, THAT IS, TO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, NO MATTER HOW GREAT OF SMALL THEY MAY BE. UNDER HIS PLAN OUR ALLEGIANCE AND THE ONLY ALLEGIANCE WE OWE AS CITIZENS OR DENIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES, RUNS TO OUR INSPIRED CONSTITUTION WHICH GOD HIMSELF SET UP. SO RUNS THE OATH OF OFFICE OF THOSE WHO PARTICIPATE IN GOVERNMENT. A certain loyalty we do owe to the office which a man holds, but even here we owe just by reason of our citizenship, no loyalty to the man himself. In other countries it is to the individual that allegiance runs. THIS PRINCIPLE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION IS BASIC TO OUR FREEDOM. It is one of the great principles that distinguishes this “land of liberty” from other countries”.

    George Washington, Farewell Address: “It is important, likewise, that the habits of thinking in a free Country should inspire caution in those entrusted with its administration, to confine themselves within their respective Constitutional spheres; avoiding in the exercise of the Powers of one department to encroach upon another. The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create whatever the form of government, a real despotism. The necessity of reciprocal checks in the exercise of political power; by dividing and distributing it into different depositories, and constituting each the Guardian of the Public Weal against invasions by the others, has been evinced by experiments ancient and modern; some of them in our country and under our own eyes. To preserve them must be as necessary as to institute them.”

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 33: “…If the federal government should overpass the just bounds of its authority and make a tyrannical use of its powers, the people, whose creature it is, must appeal to the standard [The Constitution] they have formed, and take such measures to redress the injury done to the Constitution as the exigency may suggest and prudence justify….”

    Alexander Hamilton: “Until the people have, by some solemn and authoritative act, annulled or changed the established form, it is binding upon themselves collectively, as well as individually; and no presumption, or even knowledge, of their sentiments, can warrant their representatives in a departure from it, prior to such an act.”

    I am ending with these quotes so that if you bother to read them you can start to understand the peoples place within our government; that not all of OUR powers were delegated, most were retained. That we ourselves have constitutionally assigned duties that ensure our freedom from tyranny that WE have not been carrying out or let those who serve within our governments lie to us about what they are – Militia that both the general (federal) government and state govermments are required to use; Grand Juries and Grand Jury Investigations are OUR tools to keep those who serve wtihin our governments under our eyes and accountable for their actions; free and honest elections.

    Read the US Constitution and find out that the defense of our borders are OUR duty as the Miltiia; as is the enforcement of our laws including the highest laws of each state – their constitutions, and the supreme law of our land – the US Constitution. WE are to “Protect the country against all enemies both domestic and foreign”, no one else as since it is assigned to us as the Militia it is forbidden to any other agency or person. We are to ““to suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions” for the same reason, and sicnce it is assigned to us, it is FORBIDDEN to any other agency/person/entity/etc. (US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 15: Clause 15: “To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel invasions.“)

    Thomas Jefferson: “The most effectual means of preventing [the perversion of power into tyranny are] to illuminate, as far as practicable, the minds of the people at large, and more especially to give them knowledge of those facts which history exhibits, that possessed thereby of the experience of other ages and countries, they may be enabled to know ambition under all its shapes, and prompt to exert their natural powers to defeat its purposes.”

    Thomas Jefferson: “I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves, And if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.”

    George Washington: “The preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people.”

    James Madison, Federalist 46: “… the ultimate authority … resides in the people alone”

    Thomas Jefferson: “The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite.”

    Alexander Hamilton: “Until the people have, by some solemn and authoritative act, annulled or changed the established form, it is binding upon themselves collectively, as well as individually; and no presumption, or even knowledge, of their sentiments, can warrant their representatives in a departure from it, prior to such an act.”
    Thomas Jefferson: “Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.”

    Thomas Jefferson: “Our legislators are not sufficiently apprized of the rightful limits of their power; that their true office is to declare and enforce only our natural rights and duties, and to take none of them from us.”

  12. Huge error here in terminology, which leads to a huge error in understanding the subject:

    – Orders issued in the military are either ‘lawful’ or ‘unlawful.’
    – All orders are ‘legal’ if issued from a superior by position or rank to a subordinate because of the formally recognized chain of command and rank structure within the military.

    A particular order’s violation or support of the US Constitution, the UCMJ (which supports the constitution from a military standpoint by criminalizing (to one degree or another) violations of the Supreme Law of the Land), or the Oath is what makes the order ‘unlawful.’ As such, an unlawful order cannot be obeyed without consequence.

    We were trained (and I understand this type of training has been all but abolished) this way due to Nuremberg, the trial results, and the subsequent ruling that we had a ‘duty to a higher power’ when carrying out orders.

    As such, at least in my day, the military was trained that each member, by virtue of taking the Oath, had a sworn duty to only obey those orders that were ‘lawful’ and to refuse to obey ‘unlawful’ orders (it’s that ‘support, defend, and protect the Constitution thing…).

    We also were trained that we had the responsibility to know the difference, and that should we make the wrong call, we’d most likely have to deal with the consequences.

    Contemporary examples: My Lai & Kent State.

    Fast forward to today and an example: A US military unit patrolling a US city/town/village/hamlet receives a legal order to shoot any civilian encountered after dark without exception (that mean women, children, infants carried in the arms of the mother, etc). The order is legal, but it an unlawful order based upon the violations of the 4th and 5th amendments, let alone the Posse Commitatus Act (yes, I know, it’s toothless now thanks to the Patriot Acts 1 & 2 and the NDAA, save for order of precedence and which actually supports the Constitution and the Oath). If the unit refuses to carry out the order and doesn’t shoot any civilians they see (in this example), they are, in fact, correct in doing so.

    If our military folks today can’t see this, we’re well and truly FUBAR’d.


    1. The problem is that there is no definition of what would constitute an “unlawful” order. Military personnel – especially enlisteds – are told almost from day one that they are not obligated to obey an “unlawful order”. Unfortunately, they are given absolutely NO guidance whatsoever regarding what might or might not CONSTITUTE such an order. It is left up to each individual to determine whether the order they were given was “lawful” or not. The only to determine the lawfulness of an order is to convene a Court Martial. You see, the chain of command is not going to roll over when some peon with stripes on his sleeve responds to an order with something along the lines of “With all due respect, Sir, I respectfully decline to obey that order on the grounds that I believe to be unlawful”. No matter how you dress it up, it still constitutes willful disobedience of an order.

      Whether the person issuing said order was a commissioned officer or an NCO will bear upon the severity of the punishment the disobedient troop but there was still disobedience. So the poor schmuck whose only failing was believing the hogwash he was fed in boot camp gets to stand before a military court. His defense attorney, the prosecutor AND THE OFFICERS HEARING THE CASE are all members of the same power structure threatened by this dummy’s refusal to obey. Sound like a recipe for justice? Not hardly! My guess is the guy is going to get an all expenses paid trip to that base in central Kansas where he will have ample opportunity to become highly proficient at turning boulders into big rocks into gravel into sand.

      At least in today’s Air Force the Area Defense Counsel no longer has his annual fitness reports written by the host wing commander (i.e. the guy who brings the indictment against the person the ADC is to defend). Alas, Military Justice (like Military Intelligence?) is something of an oxymoron. The way I see it, everybody who raises their right hand and takes the oath pretty much loses all the rights enumerated in the 1st 8 amendments.

  13. Llet me get this straight… this article suggests that we take one of Trump’s statements out of context to imply that he would promote the concept of turning our American armed forces against the People, while his opponent — Hitlary — has made it very clear that she intends on disarming the American People.

    David, with all due respect, please consider that America uses the Plurality Voting system. This is the primary reason why we are plagued with a partisan duopoly. Unless/until a REAL libertarian political party grows large enough to displace one of the duopoly Collectivist parties, we are stuck with the lesser of two evils.

    Knowing this, the choice of our next President will be either Trump OR Hitlary. Certainly the Oath Keepers are NOT suggesting supporting Hitlary!?!

    Sure, Trump is a “wild card” of sorts, because we don’t know to what degree we can trust what he says about guns. However, we don’t even have to guess with Hitlary!

    Please keep all this in mind over the coming months leading to November.

    Thank you!


    bernard baruch carman

    1. It may be the triumph of hope over experience, but I will continue to vote LP — the best of those unlikely to be elected — in the possibly vain hope that enough people will see their vote as an investment that will take time to mature. Until we invest one of those unelectable third parties with enough clout that the FEC cannot — without losing its remaining credibility — exclude them from the next round of Presidential debates, nothing will change. We will hear only the opinions of TweedleDee and TweedleDum (who say almost exactly the same thing or lie about it), and any alternative voices will be silenced.

      I have heard it said that most Americans are libertarians — ready to adopt “MYOB” as official policy — but they don’t yet know it. They don’t know it because they never hear libertarian/constitutionalist voices on the Presidential debate stage (except for Ron Paul who got torpedoed by the GOPe). Maybe it’s time to fix that problem.

      I know that many here consider abortion to be their touchstone issue. Let me urge such folk to consider that the GOP has not delivered what you most dearly want, and they are unlikely to do so this cycle, either. Perhaps now is the time to bid for that half-loaf: the LP is institutionally committed to defunding abortion at the federal level. True, it’s not everything you want, but it’s moving in that direction. The LP has never been able to get a consensus on ending abortion itself, and probably never will, but if they defund federally, you get to fight your battle at a much more local level.

      You didn’t bite that bullet in 2012 when it would have meant something. You didn’t bite that bullet in 2008 or 2004 or 2000 when it would have meant something. Now your vote means nothing. Why waste it on the Republicans?

  14. So after all the jaw-jacking, is the author saying he will not vote for Trump, but for Hillary? I like the chopper ride for uncooperative terrorists myself. Letting them know our rounds have a light coating of bacon grease on them is good. We ARE AWAKE, and there more waking up every day. I spent 3 weeks with our daughter over Christmas and New Years in Orlando. I was in GA & SC a couple of weeks ago. Talked to vets from all over the states and others from across the country. They are pi$$ed! Depending on how this election goes, we could see lot of push back from the citizens.

  15. Many city, state and county agencies are DHS designates. Federal training, federal gear, federal authority, federally controlled narrative (brainwashing). Many will go along to get along until they suffer personal backlash. Uncle Shoog’s plan B is foreign troops. Slick Willy wanted to arm and train street gangs to do his bidding. When I see fist pumping, Black, West Point female cadets and nothing done about it; I know the fireworks can’t be too far behind. I trained for our state patrol until they started accepting personnel with gang tatts. I know the bangers have been training in our military for decades now. It will all come down to allegiance. It’s long overdue for us to put our house back in order. Simple formula: if it aint good for America or Americans; we’re not gonna do it.

  16. No, they aren’t keeping their oath. The Constitution has been
    under attack for at least 100 years. In fact this country is only a shell of what it once was. Will not be long and this constitution will be scrapped for the new one that has already been written. (search: NEW STATES OF AMERICA)

    Oathkeepers and 3% are all talk.

  17. Now, as to the answer to the question on Trump: The minute Trump (if he wins) starts to prep to ‘hit the ground running’ after the general election, his Transition Team is going to have to start briefing him on things he can and cannot do. One of which will (or at least should) be issuing unlawful orders. And yes, I’m aware that the current occupant has gotten away with ‘murder’, however, if one looks at his track record of Executive Orders, he’s done everything in regard to the military legally, but not necessarily lawfully, and he’s backed up his actions with legal maneuverings (personally, I am of the opinion that the regime counted on the fact that the military has confused ‘legal’ with ‘lawful’ which has paralyzed the Joint Chiefs (that, and not wanting to upset their own rice bowl). I further believe that the purge of senior officers was based in part on getting rid of those who might challenge the lawfulness of orders received.

    Trump may do the same; it’s almost certain that Clinton will, as a matter of course. One only has to look at Benghazi to see the completely legal refusal to send aid, no matter how much the action violated the spirit of the law and military custom. Look at how many military folks’ careers were ended over their refusal to comply with the legality of those orders to stand down.

    Refusing to obey unlawful orders carries price; one hopes that one is never faced with that, but one must be resolved to do what is right when balanced against the UCMJ, the Constitution, and our duty to a ‘higher power’ (aka ‘Objective Truth’).

    It’d give me great hope if I knew that our senior officers and NCO’s were educating our troops on what obeying lawful orders is comprised of, and how to refuse an unlawful order.

    But I’m not counting on it….

  18. For about thirty years I taught, among other subjects, chapter nine of the Texas Penal Code to both rookie and veteran law enforcement and correctional officers. Section 9.52 states in part ” … a guard employed by a correctional facility or a peace officer is justified in using any force, including deadly force, that he reasonably believes to be immediately necessary to prevent the escape of a person from the correctional facility.” After several days of stressing that any use of force, including deadly force, has to depend upon what the person who uses the force must reasonably believe to be immediately necessary, I would describe a situation wherein the student assigned to tower duty, is faced with making a decision to obey a ranking officer’s direct order to shoot an inmate who is attempting to escape or allowing several other officers on the ground, that the ranking officer cannot see, to prevent the escape. Invariably, students say they would shoot the inmate because they were ordered to do so.

  19. Cal:
    While I’m not a constitutional scholar, I certainly have read our constitution. It is a beautiful and timeless document, and clearly written by patriots whom loved liberty and freedom.

    While I do agree with your sentiment, and that of our forefathers, reality has made me a bit cynical. I would be overjoyed to see justice served. Many so called statesmen deserve a free trip to Leavenworth, and some should publically be served the penalty for high treason.

    In reality, can you truly imagine a public trial and possible life sentence or death penalty for current and past members of government?

    In reality, can you truly imagine the reaction of our current society should truth fall upon their ears? Many would have literal and debilitating psychological damage, and be unable to function normally.

    Cal, I can only hope that there are sufficient multitudes of folks like yourself, whom love the constitution and America.


    While I’ve been aware of agenda 21 for a while, I looked into the new constitution, and con con. Wow. All I can say is wow. Thanks for posting that info.

    Retired first sergeant:

    “But I’m not counting on it.”

    I hope that all those whom are patriots will consider the cold, hard reality that you have expressed.

    Psychological conditioning is powerful, and while I can’t imagine a soldier driving his or her handcuffed mother to a FEMA camp, I can see soldiers taking other folks mothers to FEMA camps, or worse.

    To the Bill guy whom supports waterboarding:

    Would someone tell their waterboarding captor whatever they want to hear just to breathe? Anyone whom condones torture should do some soul searching and research. For the most part, torture is not as effective or efficient as good ol detective work. I suggest you carefully read the reply from Elias.

    Many people whom are intelligent enough to understand, say “I don’t even want to know”. The truth is, their soul knows. It’s a natural defense mechanism of the mind to stifle things which prevent joy. That very mechanism is being used against us.

  20. There was once upon a time, back when I first joined up in 1994, that I was utterly certain that the vast majority of my fellow shipmates would refuse an illegal order.
    That time is past. Today’s military would obey that order in large enough numbers to make those who wouldn’t irrelevant. Today’s military is just a reflection of the society that it draws it’s personnel from: utterly clueless about history, or the philosophy underpinning the great experiment that is the United States.
    Like CDR Salamander, I hold no illusion about the mythical refusal to obey illegal orders on the part of our military. Personal, first hand experience has strongly dispelled any such notions.

  21. I work within the Government and with elite forces. This discussion comes up regularly and for those Special Forces I can say, they will stand down from illegal orders and turn their guns if they must. As for the regular Joe, I’m afraid the opposite is true. Pack mentality is strong and it doesn’t matter the Branch, if an order is given no one wants to stand alone in defiance.

  22. I gave up on Oathkeepers.The Oathkeepers that I saw was filled by veterans who wanted to sit around and tell stories about how “bad ass” they were way back when. Yeah there were a few good men involved that would honor their oath. There were also a few that physically threatened those who would stand up and question the actions of our military. They seem to loose their minds when you ask them to recite one recent battle fought to defend the rights of the average American. When you tell them that the wars are fought in the interest of multinational banks and corporations and not the American people then they bully and threaten you. This is how many “Oathkeepers” defend freedom of speech.

    1. Well, all I can say is that you must have been talking to Oath Keepers who are not representative of this organization. I have personally been telling readers that the “wars are being fought in the interest of multinational banks and corporations and not for the American people” for seven years as editor of this website. I totally agree with you.
      I think you should consider that anyone can submit a dues payment and become a member without being vetted by background check or political view or religious affiliation. That means that people may obtain membership status here without actually understanding who and what this organization actually is. I am sorry you ran into the wrong dudes.


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